What if rapture doesn’t happen when you expect it to? Do you hunker down and prepare for what is to come? Where does it leave you spiritually? These are some of the things we should keep in mind since prophecy has somewhat blinded us already with the supernatural changes. We don’t know if future events will be the same way.
Serious Question for pre-tribulation believers: If the rapture happened at another point in the tribulation than you expected, how would it impact your faith? If your miscalculation left you in a place where you had to endure some or most of the tribulation, how would you receive it? Would you just see it as a simple misunderstanding and and just hunker down? Would you hold on to your view and just believe tribulation had not started since you are still on earth even though the world is literally falling apart around you (rocks falling from heaven, world war III fully declared, etc)? If say most of the other end time prophecies were fulfilled and you were still here, at what point would you reconsider it a misunderstanding, and how would you perceive your standing in God's Kingdom? These are just some questions for curiosity sake, and I am not trying to imply one thing or another about your view.
So not trying to start a fight here, but I have realized that a pre-trib doctrinal view of the scriptures is really at odds with a lot of the points that I raise in this group. One of my issues with this conflict of ideas is how do we reconcile the very obvious prophetic events we are experiencing? The lying signs and wonders of and the Strong Delusion of 2nd Thess. 2. The Times and Laws changing from Dan. 7 All of these events are happening already and seem painfully obvious to me. Furthermore if they are happening, then they have to be achieved by the one opposing Christ, the AC...as per the scripture, but the pre-trib view by definition would suggest all of these supernatural events are not prophetic fulfillments of 2 Thess and Daniel 7 ... Because in the pre-trb view would suggest believers won't witnessing any of these lying signs and wonders or times and laws changing...correct? I am trying to understand how the pre-trib view reconciles with what we are experiencing.
"My understanding is that the feasts are prophetic. The spring feasts were fulfilled when the Spirit came on Pentecost (Shavuot.) The fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled. They are Trumpets, Atonement, and Sukkot. Jesus’ return is always synonymous with trumpets being sounded in scripture. Trumpets (the feast) is the one holiday Jews don’t miss because they expect the Messiah (earthly king) to come on the feast of Trumpets. When Jesus told the Jews that no one would know the day nor the hour of his return, they knew exactly what he meant. Trumpets is the only feast referred to in that way by the Jews. If the appointed day is cloudy, it automatically moves to the next day. Atonement is God’s wrath being poured out on the earth. THAT is what we are rescued from, same as Noah being rescued from the flood. Atonement is the tribulation. Tabernacles is when God comes to tabernacle with us. It’s the Millennial reign of Christ."
For what it is worth, the whole "feast" narrative is new to me. It may have always been there but written differently so as not so much to emphasize how "God commands us to keep the feasts". I do think there are definite patterns in the Jewish traditions that model the eschatological timeline though. I do not dismiss that. Where I am coming from mainly is that how we interpreted many of these "events" may have turned out to more like Spiritually fulfilled rather than literally. I tend to think God's wrath is God's judgment on earth. I think the last 7 years include a period where God judges those who claimed to be the Church or the Body of Christ. I think during these 7 years..perhaps the last 3.5 years...many who who may have been once called to His Body, make a choice(s) that clarify where the heart really ever was. If that decision(s) falls in line with their own understanding by their thoughts or actions then they befall God's judgement on earth...they become "the walking dead" or the "who are living eternally" before the earth is replaced. So this is a very different viewpoint on end times eschatology, but I think the way the Bible changes and M.E. have played out, I think we shouldn't expect such a visceral end times scene as from what we imagine from reading Revelations literally. I was all mostly written to figuratively represent what happens spiritually to the remnant church on earth.
"I can't say much but don't remember it. First I heard of it was from people not awake that think we're in end times as well"
"Does anyone on here happen to have a scoffield reference bible? KJV?"
"Yes - I do"
"AWESOME! Can you do me a favor please? I just want a picture of the notes at the bottom pertaining to a certain verse Thes. 4:16. I used to have one but I lost it in a house fire unfortunately.
"Thanks. But I thought there was a specific footnote about 4:16. Which I believe is what really spurred the whole pre-trib notion along. I mean, the whole pretrib thing is a rather new doctrine."
"Nothing in mine 1996 edition"
"Yes - I mean Matthew 24 is clear that the tribes of the earth shall mourn at His appearing and THEN He shall gather His elect. I think pre-trib rapture theory is a trick to keep people from observing the times and seasons."
"That’s a real possibility. But I think that most pretribers think that thes.4 and the Olivet discourse are two different things. But back in the day, they understood that they were one and the same. It’s even cross referenced in my 1611. And somehow this doctrine was imposed upon the southern baptist convention. Let me find a pic. If I can’t, I’ll take another. A lot of people struggle reading the 1611 in its original format though."
"See beside verse 31? This is my 1611 facsimile. Clear reference to thess 4:16."
"Wow - so this is a reprinting of the original 1611?"
"Yes. On the same type of paper as well. I paid for it though. It came with an original leaf from an original 1611 as well. That's why I was wanting to see the footnotes in the scoffield. I'm thinking that that was a big player in the whole pretrib thing."
"IFB broke off around the turn of the centry so the pre-trib docterine must have taken root before then - they definitely carried it with them lol"
"Well, the one IFB pastor that I listened to is not a pretribber."
"There was no footnote on 4:16 specifically? In the scoffield?"
"Yes some IFB are not - the one I went to was die hard pre-trib."
"Maybe it was on the previous page."
"I'll look again."
"Sometimes it's like that. I used to have one and I noticed that. Thought it was bad practice myself, but that footnote was on 4:17. I still appreciate it though. I'm afraid that when the AC comes to power, all these pre-tribulation people will be deceived and think that it's Christ. Basically it's hard to think that the AC isn't in power already."
"But, there hasn't been a 7 year peace treaty yet, per Daniel."
"It was there?!! Oh. I see. No notes."
"No nothing - the 4:17 note talks about Blessed Hope"
"Well, verse 17 doesn't stray far from it I suppose."
"It actually references matt 24:42 but steers clear of matt 24:30,31 A blatant contradiction - either matt 24 references pre trib or it doesn't - make up your mind Scofield. See also AofD channel and Best of FB Posts for pre-trib and ac discussion."
"Welp, that's the problem that I have with scoffield. At first I thought, ok, this is what they use in Baptist seminary's. Must be good. Boy was I wrong. I haven't been pre trib in 10 years or more. But I didn't realize how scoffield felt about it at the time."
"The only thing close I could think of to rapture is the sealing of the 144k but don't know what happens when they are sealed. Also the verse in Micah about Bozrah but don't know that location either."
"But, exactly who are the 144k? The Jews? That make it through the trib?"
"Don't really know for certain. Spiritual? Physical, and if physical lineage is hard to determine for many. It could also be the people here waking up to the changes. I wish there was more in the topic of it in scriptures."
"Yea. Me too. I'm pretty sure it just says saints, so that's kinda vague. I may be wrong, don't quote me on that lol"
Don't quote me on that lol
"Well, I kinda stepped back for a few months. But I'm back in the war. But I do not want to miss quote anything. It truly is a war."
"Agreed. "Rev 7:9 KJV After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne (quite a mouthful there), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (palms?); Looks like it jumps around though. Time wise It mentions this after the sealing but…"
"Is there not a bible bot here?"
"Rev 7:13-14 KJV 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"Revelations 7:13-14 MSG Hmmm"
"What in the world is MSG? It should say KJV! Jk"
"Contemporary bible. Don't usually use it cause it's weird but wondered what it said."
"Luke 19:27 MSG As for these enemies of mine who petitioned against my rule, clear them out of here. I don't want to see their faces around here again."
"Yea. I have different translations for the same reason. But my guns are on the 1611 or the 1560"
"Contradicts just about all bibles on that verse. I haven't completely discounted a rapture if it is, but test and be weary if it happens because it's likely the ac would give himself away if you're observant."
"Of course he will. That's gonna be blatantly obvious. Whoever makes this seven year peace treaty with Israel just pinged themself as such. Well, it will only be obvious to people like us, unfortunately. The Jews are gonna start the sacrifice again this month. But I don't know where. The temple hasn't been rebult yet."
"So you just mentioned the Jews are going to start the animal sacrifice again this month? Where did you see this, and did they finally get the ashes of the red heifer? I know they have everything else in place but that and maybe one or two other items."
"This sacrifice took place on 9/26/19. Desolation…an abomination."
"Yea, it was last month, but I thought on the 27th."
"Gentiles are permitted to offer burnt offerings to God in all places, provided they sacrifice them on a raised structure that they build. It is forbidden to help them [offer these sacrifices] or act as agents for them, for we are forbidden to sacrifice outside [the Temple Courtyard]"
"Definitely a precursor, however, If I am understanding this correctly. This wasn't done in the holy place or by the Jews. So that is why they didn't need the red heifer ect."
"Anyone have a source or updates on this?"
"They did have the sacrifice. I saw an interview of the guy who did the sacrifice. I would not watch the sacrifice though. I saw pictures. I wish I could remember which channel I saw the interview on. I watch so many things, and try to keep up to date. It was my understanding the first guy who was supposed to do it, bailed out. Then they approached this second man to do it. In the interview the man who did it, had a friend with him during the whole interview. As far as the 3rd Temple is concerned, I think they already have a red heifer bloodline going. They got that and the special blue dye they needed, and all kinds of things they need. I also believe the Vatican had a lot of stuff stored away, that would be quite interesting to the Jewish people."
"I have read accounts were some say the red heifer is a clone. That was not in the original material I read many years ago. I doubt seriously if they would use a cloned animal for a sacrifice. It sure seems like a problem if they did. There is no need for a sacrifice anymore. Jesus died for our sins, the ultimate sacrifice. Many were blinded to that until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. I believe that has been accomplished. The last tribe that had not heard, killed the guy who came to preach the Good News to them. That was maybe two years ago. I am not good on guessing times, as I read so much. The tribe killed the missionary, before he ever set foot on the beach. This is all from memory, but this is what I remember."
"There might be a few tribes left in the Amazon too, and maybe Papua New Guinea. I was hoping to have confirmation that it happened via video or an article though."
"Well the story has changed from what I remember, somewhat. Especially with the Aussie story. I wish I had saved the original article I read about that."
"I looked at the Joshua Project, but they even show parts of the USA as being unreached. Maybe we should move this discussion to a prophecy area? Neither of the articles I posted were what I originally read. With the quantum effects, it makes things harder to figure out, as you can imagine."
"I understand. We know they also actively remove content from the internet that will awaken the masses."
–End of discussions–